Jan 16, 2025
He told Hospodářské noviny: “I had to constantly ensure that I didn't have to do anything. I create an environment in which people can make decisions and are responsible for them.” How does this relate to corporate culture? And how can an e-commerce leader in the market be built based on this approach? Today, I will be discussing this with Tomáš Havryluk, who managed the company Alza for nine years. He grew its revenue from 9 billion crowns to 45 billion. Now he is focusing on a healthcare startup called Medevio.
Watch the interview on YouTube:
Read the entire podcast as an interview:
(the text has been transcribed and shortened using ChatGPT)
Ivana Karhanová: Tom, hi!
Tomáš Havryluk: Hi, hi.
Ivana Karhanová: Let's start by explaining the sentence: “I had to constantly ensure that I didn't have to do anything.”
Tomáš Havryluk: I realized that if the pyramid made up of people, mechanisms, and processes that is growing beneath me is to continue to grow, then I must continuously change what I do. What my daily work entails. That means I was constantly trying to delegate what could be delegated downwards, pass it on, and have space for the new things that emerged. Whether it was some innovative topics, strategic topics, or anything else where I was for some reason the only one who could work on them.
Ivana Karhanová: What were the things you couldn't or didn't want to delegate?
Tomáš Havryluk: Things like typically connecting different departments.
Ivana Karhanová: What do you mean by that?
Tomáš Havryluk: Departments have such a silly name – they are called “departments” because they separate. And when a company is bigger, the departments then really are separate. It’s not like we all know each other anymore. The marketing person is around the corner, and the two of us are sitting here next to the couch programming. The departments are really far away from each other. And at the moment when I'm the only one above them, I am one of the few who can connect them in some way. That means determining the rules of collaboration: who will be where, where someone's responsibility begins, where it ends, how conflicts will be resolved, how evaluations will be set up, and so on.
Ivana Karhanová: According to what principles did you manage Alza?
Tomáš Havryluk: I tried to make things very transparent. That means I told myself it was better for people to know more than less. There's a classic saying that people complain about a lack of information, but at the same time about being overwhelmed with information. So I said: “Hey, we are in a modern age. Everyone must be able to absorb a large amount of information. We will prefer to send out more rather than less.” That was one thing. We have always been open to changes. If we decided to change something, we made it happen. And we always tried to get the most out of technology. This means we tried to ensure that technology helped us. But this can be a bit dangerous, because at some point, managers can find themselves in a position where they say: “Because it's not programmed, we can't improve anything.” I would almost say that there is a dependency on IT, like some kind of drug.
Ivana Karhanová: Has that ever happened to you?
Tomáš Havryluk: Not to me personally.
Ivana Karhanová: I mean at Alza.
Tomáš Havryluk: At Alza? Yes.
Ivana Karhanová: And what was it? What was the case?
Tomáš Havryluk: For example in logistics. They would say: “We can't improve our operations because this isn't finished.” Or: “This isn't programmed.” But areas like training people, increasing their performance in ways other than just giving them a better tool were still unfinished. So I told them: “You can't just wait for something to be programmed. You also have to work without it.” How did Baťa, for example, increase the performance of departments when he didn't really have any IT? I don't know exactly how he did it, but he must have done something.
Ivana Karhanová: How were your principles communicated downwards? How did you ensure that the company, as you designed it at the top, set the tone at lower levels of management?
Tomáš Havryluk: This is a difficult thing because as companies grow, describing what I want to live and how I think the company should function becomes harder and harder. When a company is small, one leads by example; everyone sees them, and when something isn’t done right, they can quickly address it. But broadcasting targeted truth in a larger company is more complicated. I tried to utilize all available resources – writing emails, creating content on an internal wiki, and using creative formats, such as frames in restrooms. That was a great marketing channel, in front of which one cannot hide, whether in women's or men's restrooms.
One example where this was visible was the process of creating core company values. Many companies simply do long brainstorming sessions, write down a few positive words like “speed” or “professionalism,” put it on the wall, and that’s the end of it. However, Peter Benda and I realized that this is not enough. We took inspiration from Amazon, which has its Values and Leadership Principles. We tried to formulate our values so that they were authentic and some even aspirational – meaning we want the company to adhere to these values, even though they are not yet fully met. It was important afterward to lead by example, explain the values, and point out when someone does or does not adhere to them.
Ivana Karhanová: Can you give a specific example of when the values were not adhered to? Because when someone acts in accordance with the values, it's fine, and it doesn't require a special response. But what happens when behavior appears that does not align with them? And what if it's a key person in the company?
Tomáš Havryluk: To me, there is no other answer than to take that person aside and tell them. Not to make it a public matter – typically. Of course, it depends on the situation whether to address it in front of the whole team or between four eyes. In any case, the key is consistency. Repeat, explain, and repeat again. The values must be constantly reminded so they become an integral part of the culture.
Ivana Karhanová: And what values did you ultimately formulate at Alza? What propelled you forward?
Tomáš Havryluk: I don't remember exactly, but roughly they were about the ability to execute – an emphasis on ensuring that things are brought to completion. There was also scarcity – meaning not to waste where we can’t afford to. And, of course, we emphasized that leaders must lead by example and live what they preach. That was crucial for the overall direction of the company.
Ivana Karhanová: When you look back at Alza, because the company grew significantly under your leadership, what were your most notable aha moments? Those moments when you said: “Hey, I thought it should be different,” or you found out the opposite was true?
Tomáš Havryluk: Well, there were many aha moments. The first was when Aleš showed me the company's financial statements and I, as an IT guy, understood what it was all about.
Ivana Karhanová: Aleš Zavoral, the owner of Alza.
Tomáš Havryluk: Yes, yes. He showed me the real numbers, and I thought: “Aha, that’s why he pushes the logistics topic. That’s why he cares so much about margins.” Until then, I only saw it from the perspective of an IT guy from ČVUT, but this opened my eyes.
Another big moment came when once I was overwhelmed and Aleš sent me a text: “Tomáš, I feel like you are doing everything there alone.” And I thought: “You idiot, why are you doing everything by yourself? Why isn't it already delegated?” That changed my perspective on management a lot.
And then maybe the first recruitments. I thought hiring people was about doing an intense test, picking the one I liked most from the top five, and that was it. But then I faced reality. One person applied without fingers, another without a leg – people who were quite “unique,” something was missing or excessive.
Ivana Karhanová: Were you looking for unicorns?
Tomáš Havryluk: At first, yes. But gradually I realized that a good manager is one who builds a company from the “stones” he finds on the street. Each person has a different shape, and when you build a wall from stones, not bricks, you have to arrange them so they fit together and create a solid structure. Managers are basically like the clay between those stones – either filling the gaps or ensuring the stones don't collide too harshly.
Ivana Karhanová: Let's go back to when Aleš told you that you were doing everything by yourself. What did you realize at that moment?
Tomáš Havryluk: I realized I should have delegated things long ago. I realized the value of a manager's time. This is key – we all have only 24 hours a day, that is physically given, and even if I dedicated all my time to work, I still have a limit. Realistically, it’s those eight to twelve hours that a person can set for themselves. And that doesn't change, even with increased responsibility or position.
The managerial game is thus about how to fill these ten hours a day in a way that maximizes impact. One trainer once told us an interesting definition of a boss: a boss is someone who gets things done completely. And that hit me hard. If people return tasks finished to me, then I'm the boss. If not, I'm not – I’m just assigning tasks, but the system doesn't work.
Ivana Karhanová: That’s a very visual example. Do you have another that influenced you?
Tomáš Havryluk: Yes. He showed us this with the example of a factory that makes markers. Imagine you are producing markers, but the cap is not snapped on. The product is therefore unfinished, and if you put it in your pocket, it will stain you. I use this to this day. When someone hands me an unfinished task, I say: “That’s like putting a marker without a cap in your pocket.” We need it to be finished – mailing launched, ads out, code ready. Otherwise, it simply doesn't work.
And yes, once as a child in fifth grade, I ran around for half a year with a stain from a red marker on my shirt. That’s something you remember.
Ivana Karhanová: How did people respond to your methods?
Tomáš Havryluk: Hmm, variously, it depended on the approach. If I were to divide it, there are two groups. The first says: “I want to learn something, I want to understand what Havryluk is saying.” It's nice to discuss with them, they think, give feedback, and we move forward together. Then there’s the second group that reacts with: “That’s not possible, you think everything is easy, blah blah blah.” Those are the classic managerial situations.
Ivana Karhanová: What did you do with that second group?
Tomáš Havryluk: They said about me that people die under me in a long, painful death. (laughs) I can't fire people – that's my weakness. Throughout my time at Alza, I didn't fire many people. Usually, I had infinite patience and hours and hours of explaining. I tried to teach them for so long that they eventually gave up themselves. If we are talking about the second group, of course.
Ivana Karhanová: When you look back at this, would you do it differently now?
Tomáš Havryluk: Sure. I would cut it faster. But it’s easy to say. After ten years, one looks back and sees everything clearly. In my opinion, a good manager should engage in continuous self-reflection. They should think: “What did I do wrong today? What did I say wrong five minutes ago?” And if possible, they should rescue it. For example, say: “Hey, I overstepped at that meeting, I didn't mean it that way.” Self-reflection is, in my view, important on a daily basis, not just occasionally.
Ivana Karhanová: How would you define Alza's corporate culture at the time you were there?
Tomáš Havryluk: It was definitely a company focused on innovations and technology. We tried to get the most out of them and fully utilize their potential. At the same time, it was a business-oriented company in the truest sense of the word. It always applied: buy cheap, sell expensive, and delay payments. These are basic business rules we followed.
The company was always profitable. We had a clear rule: if something is profitable, we do it. If it isn’t, we don't do it. Because when a person is burning money and doesn't have at least a basic compass – a black zero or something green – it’s difficult to navigate.
Another principle was fail fast. We just quickly put things out and learned from mistakes. I also pressed a lot on educating people. A photo hung in the office that said: What if we educate them and they leave? And what if we don’t educate them and they stay? I chose the second path because I believe that education gives big companies tremendous potential.
If a company can initiate educational processes, it can hire juniors and quickly progress them to senior positions. It’s an investment that pays off. Once, a manager from Deloitte told me: “The chimney must have a draft.” The company “sucks” juniors from below, provides them with care, enjoys it, and they themselves want to grow. That is key.
In Alza, this worked well. People enjoyed growing – both personally and watching the growth of the company. The fact that the company was growing was a tremendous motivational factor.
Ivana Karhanová: Do you think that this is what propelled Alza forward?
Tomáš Havryluk: I think certainly. Continuous growth was our mantra. My main KPI was year-over-year growth in operating profit, which I believe is a great indicator. Each year the game reset, and I had to think again about what to do more efficiently, what to change, what to improve to bring about that growth. That kept pushing me to keep moving. I could never become one of those “rentiers.”
Ivana Karhanová: When you say growth in operating profit, do you mean absolute value or percentage?
Tomáš Havryluk: Absolute, definitely absolute.
Ivana Karhanová: So even if you increased revenue and the percentage operating profit was lower, but the absolute value was higher, that was fine if it built a foundation for future growth?
Tomáš Havryluk: Exactly. But for an e-shop of that size, one must keep in mind that it operates on very small margins. It's like a thin ice sheet – if it starts to sink, it can be very dangerous. Hence, we tried to gradually increase the margins. Historically, there was a big difference between retail margins and e-commerce, and that was the space where we could grow.
Ivana Karhanová: What do you think most differentiated Alza from competitors in the market, such as the number two in the market, CZC?
Tomáš Havryluk: I think CZC was a similar company, but on a smaller scale. If we look at other players, like Mall, there was a big difference in approach. Mall was long-term loss-making and had efficiency problems. When I interviewed people from Mall, I often found that they did not know how to count money properly. They were more marketing-oriented, while we were more focused on IT and operations.
Innovation was another key point. I believe that Mall’s transition to SAP harmed them a lot. If you look at their revenues, you will probably see in which year they transitioned to SAP – it's noticeable. That limited their ability to innovate on both the customer side and the operational side.
Another issue is that Mall has been sold several times throughout its history. That meant “dressing the bride” – steps that made sense short-term, but harmed the company long-term.
Ivana Karhanová: From this, I deduce that Alza didn't run on SAP?
Tomáš Havryluk: No, Alza didn't run on SAP. It doesn’t run on it and I don’t think it ever will.
Ivana Karhanová: What was appreciated in Alza from the perspective of values and employee approaches? What did you personally value the most?
Tomáš Havryluk: Ideas and innovations were important, but even before that, I would place the ability to execute. Because everyone has a full drawer of ideas. But bringing things to completion – that is the real challenge. In interviews, I encountered people who said: “I'm more of a playmaker.” I generally thanked them because we needed those who finish things.
That is the hardest part. The last lines of code, the last tweaks, the last steps before launch – that’s where the most effort is always. You can see this in projects: half of the resources are spent on the first 90% of the work, and then another as much on the last 10%. And the project looks unfinished for half the time.
Ivana Karhanová: That’s very accurate. What led you to put such emphasis on completion?
Tomáš Havryluk: Because I saw that companies that don’t do it never excel. They can have great ideas, but if they don't translate them into reality, they will remain halfway. At Alza, we understood this, and I think it was one of the main reasons we grew.
Ivana Karhanová: It now occurs to me, were you there as CEO from the idea?
Tomáš Havryluk: I tried to ensure that everyone was involved from the idea. Because why should it only be the CEO? I wanted ideas to come from the whole team. Everyone has a different perspective, a different point of view and thus can bring something new.
Ivana Karhanová: Conversely, what was a no-go? What behavior did you not tolerate at all?
Tomáš Havryluk: Theft or something similar. In a large company, sooner or later you will encounter tricksters who will try to bypass something or exploit it. We gave a second chance twice, and it didn’t work twice. Those people didn't change. From then on, it was once and that was it.
Ivana Karhanová: And that's it.
Tomáš Havryluk: Exactly. Once and that’s it. Once, I even called a colleague who wanted to hire someone and told him: “Watch out for that person.”
Ivana Karhanová: What did the transformation into a very large company mean for you in terms of corporate culture? Because you experienced and drove that growth.
Tomáš Havryluk: It feels like moving from a village to a city.
Ivana Karhanová: Let's make that a bit more specific.
Tomáš Havryluk: It’s similar in many ways. When a company is small, everyone knows each other. The company party fits in one restaurant. Then it has to split into two parts, and eventually, it grows to a scale where people lose personal ties.
At that point, it is key to have capable leadership that keeps the company together. This means that the company must be able to create small autonomous units that operate somewhat like mini companies. These units should think: We have some revenues, we have costs, and that’s the game we are playing. It doesn’t matter whether it's five people in IT, fifty people in a call center, or 500 people in purchasing.
Ivana Karhanová: What else do you think is part of this transformation?
Tomáš Havryluk: The amount of information. Suddenly, there is a lot, and it needs to be managed effectively. This also relates to communication – where the information is stored, how it is transferred, who has access to it, etc.
In 2011, we introduced a wiki. Luděk Wheeler introduced it to us, saying: “Let’s write everything on a wiki.” I think this was a crucial step. A wiki is like the modern Library of Alexandria for the company. A company that doesn’t have some wiki engine hasn’t yet invented writing for me. Without a wiki, information is passed down as folk wisdom – from father to son or from colleague to colleague. That's not an advanced society.
Ivana Karhanová: What else, besides the wiki, played a role in the transformation into a large company?
Tomáš Havryluk: Professionalization in recruitment, setting up processes, developing leadership... There are so many things, and it’s hard to express them quickly. Every difference between a small and a large company has its nuances. But I would say the main difference is in how quickly and effectively a company can adapt processes that suit its size.
Ivana Karhanová: What does that mean from the perspective of trust and control?
Tomáš Havryluk: Trust starts to, I don't want to say completely disappear, but it thins out. When people stop being connected by personal ties, it’s no longer like “this is the girl from HR, whom we’ve known for a long time and worked together.” Suddenly, it’s someone who has appeared, and whom I don't know very well. Trust thus decreases, raising caution. And caution often leads to things stopping. People start to tread very carefully.
Ivana Karhanová: Then they just ensure that nothing significant happens.
Tomáš Havryluk: Exactly. To ensure that no one loses something crucial or that something obvious doesn’t have to be proven again.
Ivana Karhanová: That’s probably why you introduced the rotation policy?
Tomáš Havryluk: Yes, exactly. The rotation policy worked so that anyone who wanted to do an internship in another department – for a month, two, or six – could. If that department accepted them, their manager could not prevent them with the usual phrase: “Once everything is done, you can go.”
Ivana Karhanová: Because everything is never done.
Tomáš Havryluk: Exactly. I found this law great for two reasons. First, if a talent only goes to a neighboring department, it’s much better than if they leave for another company. Second, if such a rotation causes a gap in the original department, it forces the team to grow and find a new solution. Moreover, that person brings know-how to the new department. And if they stay there, as happened with several IT guys in the call center, that’s great. The call center then had its own IT support, which was a huge benefit.
Ivana Karhanová: That probably also leads to healthy and natural decentralization, doesn’t it?
Tomáš Havryluk: Exactly. Such a model allows individual departments to operate independently while naturally collaborating. And the best part is that when a person returns to the original department after a rotation, they bring not only new skills but also a new perspective. It often mitigates that “they are the bad ones” mentality between departments. It’s like when little Jan from our village takes Anička from the neighboring village – suddenly we are not just neighbors but connected people.
Ivana Karhanová: You have now moved from the large company environment, which you helped build to a turnover of 45 billion crowns, to the startup Medevio, which aims to facilitate communication between patients and doctors. What culture does Medevio have?
Tomáš Havryluk: I’m wondering if we can even talk about culture here. Medevio is a tiny company. In smaller companies, I feel more that the culture is similar to that of other small companies. The word “culture” actually only starts to make sense in larger scales. It’s similar to when we talk about national cultures – what culture do Germans, Japanese, or Czechs have? In small companies, it’s more about individuals than a broader culture as such.
Ivana Karhanová: So culturally different. What values does Medevio have? What drives it forward?
Tomáš Havryluk: I think the word values is not yet explicitly manifested there. But what drives Medevio forward is definitely that the product has a clear mission. The people who join us often say: “I want to work on this product because it makes sense. I want to be part of something like this.” That is reason number one. Reason number two is the team. People say: “I want to do this with you.”
That’s actually perhaps the culture – not with the vision of being the biggest company in the world or making the most money, but with the conviction that what we do makes sense. It can be considered a feature of the culture.
Ivana Karhanová: You say that the goal is not to be the best in the world. Alza probably had that goal because I can’t imagine how you can become number one without wanting to be number one. Isn’t the digitalization of communication between doctors and patients a bit of a low goal?
Tomáš Havryluk: It’s not about a low goal. Perhaps I didn’t express myself precisely. Our goal is not to be the largest company in the world, but to have the greatest impact. That’s a slightly different perspective.
The potential in healthcare digitalization is enormous. We definitely do not want to settle for just sending PDF documents between patients and doctors. That’s just the beginning. I believe that companies that want to grow and change must constantly be in motion. Otherwise, they will perish. Growth naturally forces us to do so.
Ivana Karhanová: What is the “carrot” for Medevio? What drives you forward?
Tomáš Havryluk: I think the “carrot” is growth itself. I don't see it as ending up at a big milestone where we’ll say we’re done. Instead, we focus on what can move us forward here and now.
For instance, we will improve calendars to make them easier to use. We will enhance the payment system. We will improve other functions. Those are our current priorities. Occasionally, we switch to “high beams” and look into the future – how it might work abroad, what else we could digitalize. But most of our focus is on what we can do now.
Ivana Karhanová: So what drives you up from your perspective? What principles lead you? Is it similar to Alza – innovation and drive?
Tomáš Havryluk: I think yes. What drives us forward is the desire to have as many doctors using Medevio as possible. We derive the greatest joy when Medevio is used by as many patients as possible.
We already have over 600 thousand active patients. Doctors and patients send us positive comments, which is an enormous motivation. The application maintains a rating of 4.9, which is also something that motivates us to continue.
Then we are driven by seeing how many things could and should have been digitalized long ago, but are not yet. That’s a challenge for us – to finish what should be complete.
Ivana Karhanová: The field of business, or the segment in which you wish to sell your services at Medevio, is healthcare. That’s a segment with a completely different culture. How is it to do business in it? Does it not actually clash?
Tomáš Havryluk: I had to adapt to it. Healthcare is indeed a different world. It is a highly relational segment – people know each other, they have established connections. And that is more complicated for IT people like us. We usually navigate best in environments with clear data, algorithms, and processes.
But you cannot gain ground in healthcare through online marketing. We had to attend conferences, reach out to doctors directly, call them, and fight however we could. We are learning many things from scratch because this market is new to us.
Ivana Karhanová: What was your aha moment in healthcare, besides it being a relational segment?
Tomáš Havryluk: The biggest aha moment for me was how few mechanisms are in healthcare to control how much “good” has been created for the money invested.
For example, if I go to a pub, pay a hundred crowns for coffee, and taste it, I immediately know whether it was good or not. The transaction is quickly verifiable, and based on that, I decide whether to go there next time. In healthcare, it’s not that simple.
First, this is due to the principle of how the market operates. People often do not even know that they pay health insurance. On their pay slip, they only see their net salary and have no idea how much of their money goes to healthcare. The money passes through the state, insurance companies, and other intermediaries before reaching doctors.
Second, patients usually cannot objectively assess whether they received good care. Sure, they can say: “It hurts, it doesn’t hurt.” But how can I, as a patient, know if my gallbladder was operated on well? I shouldn't be the one to assess that.
Ivana Karhanová: So evaluating healthcare is more complicated than it seems?
Tomáš Havryluk: Exactly. That’s why I’m not a supporter of, for example, star-rating doctors or hospitals. Most patients lack the sufficient expertise to assess whether the care was genuinely quality. Of course, there are exceptions and borderline cases where it can be recognized, but most of us are not able to judge objectively.
This lack of direct feedback causes the market to be less flexible. There isn’t rapid elasticity – something works poorly, so we stop using it; something works well, so we start using it immediately. Healthcare has greater viscosity and reacts more slowly to changes.
Ivana Karhanová: That must be quite a challenge for you as a startup.
Tomáš Havryluk: It’s a challenge, but also a tremendous opportunity. Precisely that slowness of change means that when you digitalize and improve something, it can have a massive impact on the entire system.
Ivana Karhanová: You are now focusing on the area of communication. Doctors, in general, are probably a category of people who do not typically have empathy and communication at a high level – at least based on my experience. Are you trying to educate them in this regard to be nicer and more sympathetic in their communication with patients? Because they also communicate through your application, where – and I speak from personal experience – if a message appears saying “Please schedule your appointment immediately,” it totally scares me.
Tomáš Havryluk: And let’s not completely slander doctors.
Ivana Karhanová: Sure, I don’t want to generalize, but the segment simply isn’t at the same level as, for example, services.
Tomáš Havryluk: That’s true, but at the same time, I would like to defend doctors a bit. It’s not easy to be under constant pressure, exposed to stress, and at the same time keep a smile on your face and say: “Good day, please come again.” Doctors are just people too, and I fully respect that.
Of course, there is also a group of doctors who have an ego like crazy. I've also heard a few times something like, “What do you want here, little boy?” But I’m over 25, so I’ve managed that. (laughs)
As for Medevio, we don’t teach doctors soft skills. We are more focused on creating content for them. Yes, we prepare them templates like “Please come for a mammographic examination,” and similar, but we don’t tell them how to communicate. We know too little about their field for that.
However, there are initiatives focusing on this. For example, Bára Mechúrová, a psychiatrist, who teaches doctors how to communicate. Or various training on “How to properly communicate bad news.” For example: “Good day, unfortunately you have cancer.” These are important things, but we don’t venture into that territory.
Ivana Karhanová: That’s probably not a message that should appear in your application like that.
Tomáš Havryluk: Exactly. And that's why we respect that there are voices saying that healthcare should not be digitalized broadly. But that doesn't mean we will stop digitalizing entirely. We just need to be careful and ensure that such a message is never sent by mistake.
Ivana Karhanová: Says Tomáš Havryluk, the former CEO of Alza. And what role do you actually hold now?
Tomáš Havryluk: I am currently the CEO of Medevio.
Ivana Karhanová: Tom, thanks for the nice interview. See you sometime.
Tomáš Havryluk: Thanks for the invitation. Bye.
Ivana Karhanová: And from the microphone, Ivana Karhanová says goodbye.